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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Oct 25, 2007 0:20:27 GMT -5
I believe that The Lion King was the last great animated film Disney made. The only film of it's immediate predecessors that may have it beat is Beauty and the Beast. The Little Mermaid is very good, and Aladdin is a lot of fun, but only The Lion King can match Beauty and the Beast in terms of story strength and breathtaking animation.
The film also rates as one of 3 post Walt Disney's death films that Disneyland uses in Walt Disney's Parade of Dreams. That puts it in very rare company indeed. And to those who complain that it didn't follow the same tradition as recent predecessors, I would like to quote a man who knew a few things about making outstanding films:
"You can't top pigs with pigs." Walter Elias Disney
The Lion King was a daring move by Disney. Part of the reason why people feel like Disney began to lose their way after The Lion King was precisely because The Lion King was so spectacular. In 50 years from now, The Lion King will still be regarded as a Disney classic, and offer tremendous value to anyone who wants to learn more about the art of animation.
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Post by Silver on Oct 27, 2007 1:09:50 GMT -5
Very true! ^^ Some arguements (if you can call some of them that) only seem to hold bitterness and biased statements. But none the less, people can say what they feel and tell like it is. If they believe TLK is overrated or a disgrace to the Disney name, then I'll let them rant. (And I won't fight it) But I won't change my opinion on the film. And it's place among Disney Classics has not fallen. (I don't see it doing so in the near future) But only time will truly tell if it has the strength to remain beloved and acclaimed.
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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Oct 27, 2007 2:03:12 GMT -5
I think that time has already given us the answer to whether TLK has the strength to remain beloved and acclaimed. It does. One thing that I've noticed on my many trips to Disney parks is how people react to certain movies and characters. During Disneyland's parade, The Lion King float is met with a huge reaction(more so than even some of Walt's classic films). I think the only floats that rival the crowd reaction to The Lion King are the floats featuring Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and the final float, a replica of Sleeping Beauty Castle featuring Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Mickey & the gang.
Like it or not, Disney gauges the popularity of a film on how it sells. And The Lion King does that very well. It remains the most successful hand drawn animated film in first release. It sold very well when Disney released it on DVD for the first time. And Disney continues to use characters from the film in their parks. I see Pumbaa and Timon warning me about ride safety every time I go to Disneyland. And The Lion King on Broadway remains a very popular and beloved musical(not to mention absolutely spectacular visually). Like the film version, the musical has won numerous awards. It is my belief that films like The Lion King paved the way for the Best Animated Film at the Academy Awards.
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Post by liongirl on Oct 27, 2007 15:37:39 GMT -5
This is my all-time-watch-it-1,000,000-times-and-never-get-bored favorite disney movie. It's also got one of my fave disney characters, Nala in it. I liked everything about it, except Scar. I just want to jump into the movie at the point where Mufasa gets killed, save him, and push Scar off instead! I really, really, LOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEE IT! L.G.
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Post by ladypocahontas on Oct 29, 2007 21:39:48 GMT -5
The Lion King is another awesome Disney movie; although, I find it very hard to watch because Mufasa dies! Scar is an awesome villain, and of course, I love Jeremy Irons! Timon is hilarious when he does the hula! There's lotsa' great characters in this film!
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Post by Silver on Oct 30, 2007 0:24:02 GMT -5
This is my all-time-watch-it-1,000,000-times-and-never-get-bored favorite disney movie. It's also got one of my fave disney characters, Nala in it. I liked everything about it, except Scar. I just want to jump into the movie at the point where Mufasa gets killed, save him, and push Scar off instead! I really, really, LOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEE IT! L.G. I think I may have found someone who could finally rival my adoration for this film more then me. But one more lover for this film may not be such a bad thing.
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Post by SpellWovenNight on Nov 3, 2007 17:45:51 GMT -5
I'm probably repeating myself but its so weird to hear all of these critiques of The Lion King, not by you but the ones that you've mentioned. When, in the town that I live and with the people I know, it is their favorite Disney film. I think one of the reasons that this film is so great because it is different then the others. I think it also has a really modern feel but it the subject of animals. Even though Toy Story did take place in the present day, along with other films, I think that The Lion King shows more morals and controversies that we face.
Its funny that you labled it mature, which it is, but my friend and I were talking about Wicked and how that it is a very Disney musical, especially when we were comparing it to the book. She arguered that it was a little darker than Disney and I disagreed and said that it dealed with more mature themes that you usually see in Disney. Although the two stories of Wicked and The Lion King are very different I think that they have some, not all, of the same themes if you look close enough.
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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Nov 3, 2007 18:31:36 GMT -5
Even though Toy Story did take place in the present day, along with other films, I think that The Lion King shows more morals and controversies that we face. And that's why it resonates so strongly. As fun as films like Toy Story are, they may not have as many strong themes as a film like TLK. There is defintely a place for both kinds of films.
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Post by Silver on Mar 20, 2008 13:12:31 GMT -5
I believe that The Lion King was the last great animated film Disney made. The only film of it's immediate predecessors that may have it beat is Beauty and the Beast. The Little Mermaid is very good, and Aladdin is a lot of fun, but only The Lion King can match Beauty and the Beast in terms of story strength and breathtaking animation. The film also rates as one of 3 post Walt Disney's death films that Disneyland uses in Walt Disney's Parade of Dreams. That puts it in very rare company indeed. And to those who complain that it didn't follow the same tradition as recent predecessors, I would like to quote a man who knew a few things about making outstanding films: "You can't top pigs with pigs." Walter Elias Disney The Lion King was a daring move by Disney. Part of the reason why people feel like Disney began to lose their way after The Lion King was precisely because The Lion King was so spectacular. In 50 years from now, The Lion King will still be regarded as a Disney classic, and offer tremendous value to anyone who wants to learn more about the art of animation. So far all of my posts on this film have been from a favorable perspective. After all, it is my all-time-favorite movie! But now I'm taking on a critical standpoint to push past my biased thoughts. In my mind there is no question that this a "good" film, but I honestly don't think it is anywhere near as classical or memerable as Beauty and the Beast. Understandably there's a reason critics and audiences alike favor this film over The Lion King with great enthusiam. BatB had a far superior script, music arrangment, and character development. The animation is the only quality that may have tied with it. Now from a fan point I'd take TLK any day, but in a critic's eyes BatB is almost 100% worthy of actually winning an Oscar for Best Picture! Even I don't think TLK is worthy of even being considered for that prostegious honor. Much of the story has already been said and done before. Many think the leading characters (with the exception of Scar) were rather bland or difficult to relate to. The characters in BatB are universal and well rounded. And the musical theater easily outshines the pop genre! It's much more fluid, intent, and bouncy. Alomost everything about BatB flows together briliantly where as TLK still has it's sketchy and corny moments that don't read with everyone. To be honest I'm surprised this film ranks with Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid and featured along side them in the parade. I think TLK ranks closer to that of Aladdin as a good blockbuster rather then a classic. BatB & TLM are legends because of their intense connection in music and story. I don't think TLK was ever quite up to standard with the beloved nature and acclaim. (Like Aladdin again) Right now Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid are the only contemporary films which I would bank on as a "Classic" 50 years from now. The Lion King on the other hand has been know as "The Most Overrated Classic" or "Giant Blockbuster". I've seen the appeal of this film from audiences go downhill. Unfortunetley there's just that special Disney magic it never had the way BatB or TLM had. Those films continue to resinate strongly for their story and music. TLK is slightly diminishing bit by it becuause it seems to be aging. I don't think it's timeless in some aspects the way it' predecssors are.
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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Mar 28, 2008 0:24:07 GMT -5
I believe TLK to be a superior film to TLM. I think it's story of loss and redemption is much deeper and more powerful than Ariel's charmed fairy tale(not that there's anything wrong with fairy tales). Simba endured a terrible tragedy and lived with the scars of that tragedy for years. Even as he tried to hide from his destiny, he could never escape who he was. The scene where Timon mocks Simba's belief about the stars is poignant. Simba laughs uncomfortably because he wants to "fit in," but knows that there's something amiss in his life. Mufasa's rebuke is powerful, painful, and yet touching. Even though Simba has forgotten who he is, it's not too late to become who he's supposed to be. The Lion King is the story of personal change, learning from past mistakes, and overcoming them. That story is timeless and I think it's why the film will resonate with audiences for years to come. The story is also a major reason why I think The Lion King is a superior film to TLM. Like the other two modern classics, it does feature a powerful connection between the music and story. I Just Can't Wait to Be King is very similar in feel imagery of Under the Sea and Be Our Guest. While I realize that Elton John is a rock star, I don't think the music in the film has a "pop" feeling to it. I believe that Can You Feel the Love Tonight is a better love song than both Beauty and the Beast and Kiss the Girl(which is a pseudo sort of love song). I disagree completely that TLK is a classic simply because it made a ton of money. I believe the film is replete with powerful characters. Frankly, I would rather have my future daughters look up to Nala or Sarabi than Ariel. I hope I can be the kind of father that Mufasa is(though I'm very glad my brothers are not like Scar . Perhaps TLM does have more real characters than TLK, but that does not in my mind make it a better film. I think TLK's story of redemption sets it above TLM and at least on par with BatB's story of looking upon the heart.
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Post by Silver on Apr 1, 2008 18:53:28 GMT -5
From a fan's perspective, I agree with you. TLK has a gorgous and sensational story that continues to have me burst into laughter and tears! And the characters are beautifully created and displayed. In fact I'd rate it a "15 out of 10"! But from a critical standpoint, it drops down a notch. I'd rate it as a 7 & 1/2. I think TLM had a more thought-out production and story as a whole. I'd give it a 8 & 1/2. Granted it's not by any means nealy as lavish or well-constructed the way BatB is. (But then again I think very few animated films can even begin to make comparisons th their standerd)
I think what TLM has that ranks it as a classic is a story that continues to resignate as well as cross-generation plotline. When Hans Christian Anderson wrote this story originally, it appealed to readers because it not only took the audience on a journey of fantasy and mystery; it gave us a look at our own world in a new light. The wonder of our customs, materials, and settings. It also represents universal themes of children & parent realtionships, growing up and making your own decisions, standing by your friends, breaking the mold from your family, and whatever you dream for can achieve. Disney gave this ageless story a freash new approach with it's updated characterization and it's music arrangement.
TLK on the other end doesn't quite have the same essance in the storytelling. Mainly because the plot has been said and done so many times before, it doesn't appear to be as refreshing the way it's earlier prodessors were. With a film speaking so much about redemption, it didn't quite fill the void. It could have had more detail, and deeper self-discoveries. And having distant echos from "Bambi" didn't exactly work in the film's favor. Audiences are alreay familar with this story of self-full fillment and transition. Many still don't have an interest in seeing another interpretion again. (Especially by the same company) Plus having controversey in alleged racism, disturbing images, and plagerism didn't give it brownie points either. Critics around the world still attack it as film that focased more on it's comercialism and taking credit for a story they didn't orginally create themselves and did not acknowledge it's true ownership. (See Wikapedia. com for more information) All thses negatives worked against the film on being taken seriously. That's why some critics still give it the title "Overrated Classic" because it doesn't have a fresh message, it borrows too much, and it has many controversies following in it's name.
The music is a bit similar because it's texture isn't nearly as powerful or as memerable as the films that came before it. (Wih the exception of Circle of Life) It may not be bubblegum pop, but it follows along the pop genre none the less. "I Just Can't Wait to Be King" isn't considered favorite in the way "Under the Sea" is because it doesn't project the story forward or truly take you into the depth of the character's mind or heart while maintaing it's entertaning quirks. Most of the music from the film is in the same boat. (Although Can You Feel the Love tonight has been comercially successful) Music from TLM has not only touched audiences emotionally, it's a blast to listen too. TLK has created more radio style music that can be even forgettable.
I'm going to disaggree with you on children viewing character and celebrities as role models. I believe that if one day I have children of my own, they will look up to real positive figures who have created influence and inspiration in their life. The characters on the other hand I hope will be viewed as entertainers. In reality, it's actuall people who inspire these characters everyday. I would hope my children will understand these differences and view the influences in their life as the true idols and role models.
While I do repect and understand your views, I think we just see them differently when it comes to critical perspectives. Which is fine. But I still think The Lion King didn't have that special ingrediant the way The Little Mermaid had in the case of classic storytelling and music. It just fell short. And it's not quite up to par the way contemporary masterpieces have bonded with audiences around the world. Which is okay because I still love it to death and can accept it's faults.
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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Apr 2, 2008 2:02:17 GMT -5
A few thoughts:
First off, I think that TLM is so beloved because it reminded audiences of how Disney used to make films. It is the first film of the second golden age of Disney animation. Many themes in TLM have already been explored in previous Disney films. There's nothing wrong with exploring such themes anew however.
Frankly, I find the alleged "thievery" of the TLK story somewhat fuzzy. These accusations came from a small, but vocal group of devotees of The White Lion who circulated a petition demanding that Disney give credit for a story that the devotees believe Disney stole. The family has said nothing. I do not think it's fair for critics to say that Disney "stole" the idea simply because of similarities they share. The "evidence" I have seen is flimsy at best.
The racist allegations really bother me. The film celebrates the African influence. The controversy I remember came from concerns over similarities between Hitler's marches and Scar's minions. Scar was a bad guy. He wanted to kill the heroes. Disney was in no way attempting to glorify anything. Haunting images is nothing new for Disney. There was controversy when Walt killed Bambi's mother. Sleeping Beauty uses the word hell, and the final sequence is very violent.
While children should look up to real life heroes, they are going to admire the heroes of their imagination as well. Because of that, it's important that those imaginary heroes be worthy of emulation. Sadly, there are some children who grow up in horrible situations with no positive real role models. These children will likely seek out heroes in an imaginary world that offers them some hope and comfort in an otherwise miserable setting. And Simba is a wonderful hero. To a little boy or girl who has lost a father or mother, Simba shows that you can overcome such a tragic loss. While there is no substitute for "real" heroes, imaginary heroes can teach a lot as well.
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Post by barkydog2000 on Apr 6, 2008 18:59:21 GMT -5
Ok, well I think your conversation on this is very interesting, I am still waiting to see this movie again more recently before I add a lot of my own comments.
I just wanted to pull out in our discussion: the stealing of the idea from The White Lion. I just think that is stupid. I have never seen the white lion, but I know for a fact that The Lion King is more stealing its storyline from Shakespere's Hamlet. But so many people have done veriations of Shakespere, why critize Disney for doing the same thing. I actually think it is a good thing to bring back a classic story like that with a fresh view, as long as it is done right, which I believe it is.
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Post by Silver on Apr 8, 2008 22:40:08 GMT -5
Yeah I know my view point must be very strange. ^^ (I mean how often will a fan criticise a film so bluntly) But I guess that's just apart of who I am. I have that split personality. One is a fan who will share as much praise as she can, while another have to point out all the faults at hand. So even my favorite film can't escape my wrath. (hehe)
Although on the plagerism note: I'm still undecided. I'd really hate to believe that the creators of this film would steal and lie. But I have no evidence either way. Even if I had seen "Kimba: The White Lion", technically from these circumstances given, there's no to truly way to prove they did plagerize. While the comparisons between the two seem a little too coincindental, it could always turn out to be just that. I still have my suspicions though. Something about the way the creative team discusses this issue, doesn't quite read truthfully. (My opinion and view though) I really do wonder if they are still trying to cover up their possible lies and wave this controversey off. I hope with all my might I am mistaken. But we may never know. Although the creative team has mentioned (primarily on the DVD) the Shakesperen themes were considered as "inspirations". As were the Bambi's. But I do find it odd why they didn't say when it was released originally that these were the inspirations. They claimed when it did come out that it was "Disney's First Original Piece". Maybe that's why I'm still skeptical even now on whether or not they're being honest on this "Kimba" matter. Something about their mannerisms and answers on this film isn't reading straight. At least that's my perception.
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Post by Briar Rose's Dark Knight on Apr 9, 2008 0:14:55 GMT -5
While there are clear elements of other stories that inspired The Lion King, it is still different enough from those stories which inspired it. We're not talking about a few changes here and there such as the stepsister slicing off her heel to fit the slipper in the original Cinderella, or Jiminy Cricket being squished dead in a book halfway through Pinocchio.
As I've said before, my concern with the White Lion issue comes from a few reasons. First off, the man behind The White Lion has never accused Disney of stealing his story. The accusations were brought up by devoted fans of the White Lion. Second, Simba is the Swahili word for lion. So, it's not a difficult stretch to think that Disney would use Swahili words for a film with clear African influences.
I think I've said it before, but some people use the fact that concept art for The Lion King depicted Simba as a white cub as proof that they swiped the story from Kimba. I've seen concept art from Sleeping Beauty that's depicted Briar Rose's blouse in green instead of the final gray and early artwork that depicts a female princess that bears very little if any resemblance to Aurora. Concept art is just that. It's exploring different colors and concepts to see how they look and whether they'll work with the finished product(if you see the green blouse for Briar Rose, it's obvious that the gray works so much better in the film). Some concept art has influence on the finished product, while other concept art is interesting to look at.
The problem with the plagarism charge is that there is insufficient evidence to prove that Disney stole the idea. Nothing against the White Lion, but it is an obscure foreign film that most people have never heard of. Because of that, it's entirely possible that Disney could have developed this story without ever knowing of the white lion story until after this whole controversy arose. Simply put, I believe that if the family of the White Lion creator believed Disney had stolen the story, they would have published their grievances far and wide. Instead, they've been silent on the matter.
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